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Anonymous b50704c77d25e94d93c517d38fa1aa92 started this discussion 2 months (2008-10-12 15:30:36 UTC) ago:
Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"
1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."
This is what I believe in. This is all I have left.
Why would god hate homosexuals? I didn't choose to be gay. If I could choose then I wouldn't be gay. I can't help the way I feel.
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Anonymous 8fd18ff64641ba31712e7a7cbc39571b replied with this 2 months (2008-10-12 15:37:26 UTC) ago, 7 minutes later (#68,902):
If you want to interpret the Bible exactly as how it was written, you will undoubtedly go to Hell. However, if you look at how it was written and the other people that homosexuals are grouped together with, it seems like they didn't understand that homosexuality isn't a choice. You can choose to be covetous, adulterate, or effeminate, but you can't choose to be homosexual. Whoever wrote the Bible probably thought of homosexuality as a choice instead of something you're born with, something you have no control over.
Now, whether or not God wants you to be celibate or what is something that I can't answer.
Anonymous 3045716f2b46ec4b5c229405d0f13140 replied with this 2 months (2008-10-12 15:43:45 UTC) ago, 6 minutes later (#68,904):
> Why would god hate homosexuals? I didn't choose to be gay. If I could choose then I wouldn't be gay. I can't help the way I feel.
A very good question. Perhaps you could think on it as you turn away from the "faith" you've been indoctrinated into. True spirituality is found in nature.
Meanwhile, perhaps consider that the bible is merely a collection of writings from many people with many agendas. The bible might be claimed as the "word of god", but surely it could/would have been tampered with over the years. Twist the bible to suit your own agenda, or join a fundamentalist group.
The idea behind hating homosexuals is probably connected to maintaining the status quo, adhering to your parents wishes, and increasing population - none of which is as relevant today.
Anonymous 1f841096cb7ba0d0d7fa1217163e7a82 replied with this 2 months (2008-10-12 16:00:05 UTC) ago, 16 minutes later (#68,906):
You're a Christian, not a Jew. All save the last of those quotes are from the Old Testament. Read Jesus' Sermon on the Mount; he fulfilled the old Laws, often with direct opposites:
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well."
That's why we can wear clothes of both cotton and wool, despite the commandment of Deuteronomy 22:11.
The last quote is from Paul, not Christ. I do not trust Paul at all, but at the very least one should recognize that he was not infallible and his words were not necessarily God's.
Disclaimer: God does not exist. You should stop hurting yourself with false fear.
Anonymous e8da97415e023d3a4d5423500dcd8a91 replied with this 2 months (2008-10-12 16:05:58 UTC) ago, 6 minutes later (#68,907):
It is very cavalier for some of us anons to tell you, "Nah, you have nothing to worry about, because your beliefs are invalid."
However, you
did ask for the truth. You are going to have to examine your beliefs critically. If you can at least start with the premise that God gave you your brain and intended for you to use it, then perhaps you can avoid the mental block instilled in you to prevent you from doubting.
The greatest American author (IMHO, Mark Twain) wrote a very short book dealing with these issues. His family tried to have it suppressed after his death, but it's available. It's called, "Letters from the Earth."
He starts off very gently, but the book climaxes into a scathing denial of religion on multiple grounds, and in an eloquent way. The book references plenty of scripture in reaching its conclusions.
Here is a section from the end which is relevant to your situation:
Strange . . . a God who could make good children as easily a bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave is angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice, and invented
hell — mouths mercy, and invented
hell — mouths Golden Rules and forgiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented
hell; who mouths morals to other people, and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites his poor abused slave to worship him!
Read this whole work here:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/twain/letearth.htmAnonymous b50704c77d25e94d93c517d38fa1aa92 (OP) replied with this 2 months (2008-10-12 16:12:56 UTC) ago, 7 minutes later (#68,912):
To the last 2 people
Thanks. But I cant live without the thought of no afterlife. If I give up on religion, then my life will be so depressing and I'll always be depressed about dieing.
At least with religion I have hope of an afterlife, hope that after I die I won't be gone forever.
*sigh*
Anonymous fefd376152de47e6bc4c1b191feef71b replied with this 2 months (2008-10-12 16:20:14 UTC) ago, 7 minutes later (#68,913):
God does not hate homosexuals, only those who said or wrote those passages hate homosexuals.
Anonymous af1a63d54703a56b1be9a529f201a1d9 replied with this 2 months (2008-10-12 16:26:53 UTC) ago, 7 minutes later (#68,918):
The concept of God as described in the Bible/Koran is fairly limited in scope.
Why would an all seeing, all knowing, all present entity care which variety of two-legged biped you're wired to seek out first? God IMO is just creation experiencing itself and that everything that happens *is* God, not just "God's Will". You being gay is just a small aspect of God which happens to be gay. Separating ourselves from god is the biggest mistake any religious person can ever make.
I wouldn't stress so much about some bullshit written in a book that's far from a reputable source of the true word of God (if there is such a thing). That's how organized religion fucks your mind up, bu making you feel guilty and ashamed for doing what we have essentially been born to do!
You're gay. That's fine. Find another like-minded man and fuck the shit out of him, and don't worry about what some small-minded asshole 4000 years ago thinks.
Anonymous 508b0fe170f1a5f6b74020756b741fde replied with this 2 months (2008-10-12 17:11:43 UTC) ago, 45 minutes later (#68,922):
Allow me to share my belief as they will probably help you.
It is highly illogical that one particular group really saw God and recorded his words, and what he says is right and wrong. If we keep going back to the original writers of the Christian Bible, we will find a group of people who had at least SOME WHAT of an idea what they were talking about. However, what are the odds that after 1000's of years the words didn't get mixed around at least a little. If the words keep getting mixed around just a little for 1000's of years eventually things will detain away from what they originally were.
If God hated homosexuals then why did he create the ability for them to be such? If he really made mankind then he must have made everything including homosexuality.
Anonymous 46403c7a8f969bc0b1533772bf640274 replied with this 2 months (2008-10-12 18:37:30 UTC) ago, 1 hour later (#68,938):
There's no point arguing over The Bible because The Bible is not divinely authored. You could pick any book you want and argue about whether homosexuality is fine according to that book. You happen to have been raised, by pure coincidence, in a household or other environment that made you look to the bible for moral guidance, but other cultures use other books and the wisest use no single source to deduce their morals.
If it depresses you that your faith is just another faith that has arisen, and probably doesn't have much to say about the truth, then that's only because its different from what you're used to. Once you're used to no afterlife, it will not be depressing. It will also allow you to make the best use of the time you have left instead of worrying about what God thinks of your actions.
Anonymous 7aabb74b004a1058890b9f483daaba7b replied with this 2 months (2008-10-12 19:11:46 UTC) ago, 34 minutes later (#68,963):
All you need to do is believe Jesus Christ is your lord and savior and died on the cross for you sins, and you'll go to heaven. - That's the way i see it.
If you think you get to heaven by works and faith, join a catholic church. Protestantism is salvation through faith alone.
Anonymous 7790c540aa8d2f144f8dc6605cef025c replied with this 2 months (2008-10-12 20:02:56 UTC) ago, 51 minutes later (#68,994):
Remember, even if you are committing acts in affront to god, you can always ask forgiveness and you will be given forgiveness, this means that if you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour (which I'm sure you have) Be well assured that you will be going to heaven.
Anonymous dfc21848df15c9cf96011d880097c31f replied with this 2 months (2008-10-12 21:34:43 UTC) ago, 2 hours later (#69,008):
The main problem here is God isn't real, not that you're homosexual. As soon you realize Christianity is a superstition with the only purpose of controling people the better off you'll be.
Anonymous fd70c0c0206008ea79cc7fb4d612f49f replied with this 2 months (2008-10-13 00:04:41 UTC) ago, 2 hours later (#69,065):
If there was a god and it designed you with homosexuality, one of two things has happened. Either the god's design is flawed (not possible, since christians claim god is perfect, etc), or homosexuality is an intended design feature, and you are totally ok.
Remember, the bible was written by regular human beings with opinions and stuff. They included the writings of their friends, and excluded those they didn't like. They used belief to control people, so it was like a form of government. They had no idea of science back then, and just wrote what they though, which has become the bible, which so many unquestioning fools follow today.
Do you want to live the rest of your life unhappy because someone else's opinion of what a god thinks of something that is natural to you?
Be happy :-)
Anonymous 31fb84657cd5ecad4f76ad0d806f2ff5 replied with this 2 months (2008-10-13 00:57:52 UTC) ago, 53 minutes later (#69,094):
OP:
You say that if you can no longer believe in an afterlife, you will become depressed. Why?
You should count yourself extremely lucky that you have life at all. Live it to the fullest. There are an
uncountable number of possible people who never even got a chance at life. The fact that it ends gives it meaning.
If it lasted forever then nothing at all would matter.
Anonymous 8fd18ff64641ba31712e7a7cbc39571b replied with this 2 months (2008-10-13 01:13:27 UTC) ago, 16 minutes later (#69,103):
As an atheist, I don't see why the lack of an afterlife bothers you. Have you ever stopped and wondered what you were before you were born? You were non-existent. After death, you will also be non-existent. You already "know" what death is like, there's no reason to be afraid. If anything, the idea that there is no afterlife should inspire you to be the best human being you can be. Most people wrongly assume that atheists are a bunch of depressed miserable folk. The truth is entirely opposite.
Anonymous 5989fbc01a6d540afd1ac023c63d58ea replied with this 2 months (2008-10-13 01:45:21 UTC) ago, 32 minutes later (#69,121):
The Christian religion as it is practiced is extremely different from how it was intended to be practiced. Modern Christianity deviates substantially from how it was intended to be practiced in the Bible, and the Bible is extremely edited. Look for gnostic texts and you'll find that Christianity is actually a lot more open minded than you'd ever guess. God is lenient and forgiving, the church is not, so after centuries they made sure to edit out any passages that let you know that you are free to be a real human being and live your own life.
Anonymous 31fb84657cd5ecad4f76ad0d806f2ff5 replied with this 2 months (2008-10-13 03:28:18 UTC) ago, 2 hours later (#69,145):
I know it can be uncomfortable to hear someone tell you that your most deeply held beliefs are wrong, but sometimes it has to be done. I urge you to
take a long, hard look at your religion from the outside - analyze it not as a believer, but as someone who has never heard of it before. Ask yourself
what reasons you have for believing. Doubt can be uncomfortable at first, perhaps even painful, but it will pass. Trust me, I know.
Anonymous e94a24e0e18823a41d0245849a25a68b replied with this 2 months (2008-10-13 08:27:02 UTC) ago, 5 hours later (#69,223):
To OP, you are not going to get a real Christian point of view oh anontalk. Most people here (or in much of the internet )don't believe in God. If you believe the Bible as the true word of God then you have some serious decisions to make. I don't believe you are born being gay as I believe that the world around you influences behavior. I believe that you need to read your Bible more (over and over) and pray and ask Jesus about this. Pray for wisdom and understanding in this matter. You will find the answers whether through reading the Bible or by examples that God will show you in your everyday life. It is up to you to accept the reality that God has revealed to you. Sometimes we don't like the answer that He tells us.
Your best bet is to focus on God and Jesus more and become celibate. If you are in sexual sin that you feel that you have no control over than it is better to take yourself away from it. Focus on Him. What does it benefit the man if he gains the whole world and loses his soul?
Better to be in heaven with Him in eternity than lose yourself because you were horny for a couple years of life.
I know the rest won't like my reply but it wouldn't be surprising. I know God will give you the answers you are looking for and I hope that you will be able to receive it with an open heart.
Anonymous 31fb84657cd5ecad4f76ad0d806f2ff5 replied with this 2 months (2008-10-13 12:33:21 UTC) ago, 4 hours later (#69,247):
> I don't believe you are born being gay as I believe that the world around you influences behavior.
Although I would also make this argument, we probably have different opinions on this.
I do think that homosexuals are not born that way, but that it is a product of environment. However, this does not mean that there is something wrong with being gay. Many things are a product of environment: the way you talk, the food you like, etc.
Also, he should remain celibate? Your god is a cruel god indeed if he intends this person to never know love or sex.The guilt that christianity causes some people by telling them their natural desires are evil sickens me sometimes.
Anonymous b50704c77d25e94d93c517d38fa1aa92 (OP) replied with this 2 months (2008-10-13 14:25:15 UTC) ago, 2 hours later (#69,266):
@69,247I agree
Telling me to be celibate was shocking
But i agree about homosexuality caused by the environment.
From what I have read, God is a loving god and wants me to be happy. I didn't choose to be gay, I didn't choose this life, but i took it and did the best I could with it. I'm proud of this, and im going to suck off my friends cock all night long tomorrow
Thanks guys
Also at the bottom of my to-do list is to question the validity of Christianity, ill try to remove my fear of no afterlife before I get to it
Anonymous 31fb84657cd5ecad4f76ad0d806f2ff5 replied with this 2 months (2008-10-13 17:14:43 UTC) ago, 3 hours later (#69,295):
Glad to hear it.
You will probably find that to no longer fearing what happens after death will go hand in hand with losing your faith. Breaking free of years of indoctrination takes courage to even attempt, I applaud you for it.
Anonymous c946a2c251f3deb407df664420e5a0c1 replied with this 2 months (2008-10-14 00:44:44 UTC) ago, 8 hours later (#69,480):
Hello OP, an atheist and former christian here.
As far as your Old Testament quotes, Christians will tell you that "old law does not apply" because of Matthew 5:17
Though in the eyes of a good portion of Christians, a homosexual christian is a dichotomy. They argue that you cannot pursue a relationship with Christ when you have this sin (homosexuality) keeping you from him. Or to put it, when you accept Christ, you are admitting to being a sinner, and asking forgiveness for your sins, but if you are gay, you are just continuously sinning against God, therefore not attempting to be forgiven. It's kind of ironic given that Jesus died on the cross for all sin, but hey it's one reason I think Christianity is dumb.
Anonymous b50704c77d25e94d93c517d38fa1aa92 (OP) replied with this 2 months (2008-10-14 03:40:08 UTC) ago, 3 hours later (#69,555):
@69,480God damn
Jesus died for all sins. Yet homosexuality is not covered
Im starting to feel this religion is not for me
Anonymous 0168de81159364eb2c013548d92f3bd6 replied with this 2 months (2008-10-14 07:46:15 UTC) ago, 4 hours later (#69,658):
1) Throw all of those scriptures away. Now you have nothing to define your rules and regulations for life. NOTHING! You are FREE to do whatever you want.
2) Write some new rules and regulations for your life. It's your life after all. And it's your only one. Remember the laws of the land where you live. That teenager might look hot, but is it worth getting raped and killed in prison for? That marijuana might be fun, but can you really afford 5 years mandatory if you get pulled over?
3) Be so very incredibly happy because for the first time you are actually living your life! Your life is no longer owned by someone or something else.
4) Spread this message to other suffering individuals. Happiness is really only one evening away. Take out a notepad and start NOW.
Anonymous 0168de81159364eb2c013548d92f3bd6 replied with this 2 months (2008-10-14 07:54:19 UTC) ago, 8 minutes later (#69,660):
Regarding no afterlife: Why in the world would you want an afterlife? Don't you realize you and other might be ready and finished? I agree that life may be too short for some, but living forever seems like cruel and unusual punishment. I find peace in knowing one day I won't have to do anything and can be finished.
Besides, the two options described in Christian mythology don't sound very fun to me. I either burn forever, apparently flesh and matter than can burn get's put back on me so it can burn again in a non-stop cycle (what a "loving" God to think of this place for his "children") or I get to sing kiss-ass songs all day to the person who sent my son to hell because he was happy living his life gay. Praise god almighty, I love you so much, thanks for burning my own son in hell over and over because he wanted to be happy in his life! You are loving. This is pretty psychotic if you haven't noticed. But hey! At least the streets are made of gold! Because that matters, or something.
There may be an afterlife, but an afterlife where we remember this life would be horrible and eternal torture.
Anonymous b9c65f521ef4d0381855f31a00d554e7 replied with this 2 months (2008-10-14 08:04:35 UTC) ago, 10 minutes later (#69,672):
Your fault is that you think that because you like men, that God does not love you. This is false. It is not homosexuality necessarily, but the action of homosexuality that is condemned. For someone like you, what you are facing is no doubt difficult, but you must persevere in not engaging in active homosexuality. I understand slightly where you are coming from, because I have bisexual tendencies.
As for the Bible verse in Corinthians you quoted, effeminate might refer to cross-dressing, as the root word refers to clothing as well. This act is not looked upon kindly by the Bible either.
Before you decide that it's not worth it, you might want to get yourself a Strong's Concordance, which tells you what every word in the Bible means in its actual language, and a King James Version of the Bible, because the Strong's will only correspond with the original text. I say this because it looks as if you are quoting a New International Version, or some other translation, in which some words get lost in translation.
Anonymous b9c65f521ef4d0381855f31a00d554e7 replied with this 2 months (2008-10-14 08:10:16 UTC) ago, 6 minutes later (#69,678):
By the way, by posting your topic on Anontalk, you inadvertently sounded the carrion call to the shithead vulture atheists. You're much better off posting on a Christian Anon. They may be ale to help you more.
Anonymous 0168de81159364eb2c013548d92f3bd6 replied with this 2 months (2008-10-14 08:17:51 UTC) ago, 8 minutes later (#69,687):
@69,672All these rules and regulations. Sheesh. Isn't it easier to dictate how you live your own life?
Anonymous b50704c77d25e94d93c517d38fa1aa92 (OP) replied with this 2 months (2008-10-14 08:23:09 UTC) ago, 5 minutes later (#69,691):
@69,678Wow that's really great advice. I will give it a go. Thankyou
Anonymous fd70c0c0206008ea79cc7fb4d612f49f replied with this 1 month (2008-10-18 09:16:12 UTC) ago, 4 days later (#71,454):
@69,678Shithead vulture atheists? Lovely way to treat your neighbour, christian (assumption made that you are christian). I see "do unto others" has no meaning to you.
If atheists were indeed circling here in a vulturistic manner in order to prey on those questioning their faith, how would this be different to christians going to poor countries and disaster zones, preying on poor peoples' plights in order to do their missionary work and convert them?
And because this is AT, I shall now proceed to insult you, too. Fuckwad. :-)
Oh, and a small post script: the lowercase "c" was deliberate.
Anonymous e9202a0a3b6de8b7e594b1a128de5828 replied with this 2 weeks (2008-11-16 19:18:39 UTC) ago, 4 weeks later (#85,314):
If you are a gay Christian, and your community is homophobic, now you can choose another one. Haven't you ever heard about the Metropolitan Community Church? Then visit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Community_Church and thousands of links from there. This is the community of gay Christians in Northern America.
The Episcopal Church also has gay priests and they don't consider homosexuality would be a sin.
German Lutheran Church also called upon all Christians to stop frightening and pursuing gay and lesbian people after the Holocaust tortured and killed at least 15 000 gays.
Anglican Communion still says it's a sin, but their two priests got married each other to change this.
Roman Catholic Church has many small unofficial gay congregations in Europe, and we Catholics have the oldest now existing Christian gay community, the Order of St. Aelred:
http://www.geocities.com/staelredmonasterymanila/I'm sure you know St. Sebastian too. He symbolises the temperance and pure love for gay Christians because he refused the horrible orgies of the ancient Rome and beleived in love based on emotions. Most Christians don't consider these saints as gays, although historians also know that St. Sergius and St. Bacchus lived in a gay marriage.
You also surely know Matthew 8:5-17, when the Roman centurion said “Lord, I am not worthy” and Jesus found his faith so strong that he restored his ill slave without going to their house. The original text has "boyfriend" instead of "slave". Their city Capharnaum (Capernaum) is a gay Christian symbol.
It's the same like when the Church printed Michelangelo's poems deformed through 4 centuries because they replaced his gay lovers with women in every poem. They couldn't do the same with Shakespeare because England was too far from the Vatican's censorship.
Our pope is still homophobic but hey he was a member of the Hitlerjugend when he was a kid!
If I would live my whole life lonely because of the Bible, finally I would hate all people and it would be much worse than using a liberal interpretation of the seventh commandment.
'he who would save his soul will lose it, and he who loses his soul will save it.'
Thousands of people kill themselves in every year because they can't accept that they are gay and suicide is the best way to Hell. Churches are accessories to these suicides.
That's why the line between Christian and underground/industrial/gothic music is not clear, and there are musicians who play in churches while other churches say they serve the Satan. Industrial music is based on shouts from Hell and protest against scaring people with it. Many theologists - Catholics and Protestants - says Hell won't be exist after the end of the world, or don't even exists right now.
I don't know what can the Metropolitan Community Church do with the anti-gay sentences in the Bible, but if you are interested in this, just ask them!
Anonymous e9202a0a3b6de8b7e594b1a128de5828 replied with this 2 weeks (2008-11-16 21:08:45 UTC) ago, 2 hours later (#85,373):
Ewww I hope my English teachers won't read the comment above, I made stupid grammar mistakes, it's not my first language. I just wanted to say that a gay Christian should care about other gay people's soul and not about the conservative viewpoints. Most gays are atheists, Buddhists, occultists, Wiccas etc. and even if you don't try to convert them, you still can be an example for them. They will see you have the courage to be gay and Christian at the same time. The easiest way is to choose a new philosophy of life or a new homeland where gay people can draw back and live in there. Let's see the muslim countries where there are no gay muslim communities and they still hang or jail gays. As it can't last for ever that Iranian gays move to Canada, choosing a new philosophy of life is also not a good solution. It's the same as being celibate and stay away from other gays. Do you think this is what God expect from you?
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