Now I haven't read much about logic or stuff so if someone could formulate my problem with a better language I'd be thrilled.
Let's say God is omniscient.
Because of his omniscience he will only act in one way, seeing how he's because of mentioned omniscience seeing himself act in the future, now and the past.
Now let's take a soul.
God is the creator of all souls, since he is the creator of everything. Which means that he makes a conscious decision when creating a particular soul. Because of his omniscience he will see this souls future before he's even created it, he will see whether or not this soul will sin or not.
Now here comes my point:
If God is truly omniscient, then why does he knowingly create souls that inevitably will sin and revolt against God, thus being condemned to hell?
The way one can explain this is if God's either not:
Omniscient

or

All benevolent

What do you guys think?
Did I think it through this time?

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Your simple argument perfectly knocks down the God hypothesis. The usual rationalisation that religious people give involves free will; but a child can see that your argument stands even given free will.

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But if it works,why haven't anyone used this argument before?

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Well it sounds a lot like the problem of evil:

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?" — Epicurus, as quoted in 2000 Years of Disbelief

Both ways work fine. I'm sure people have used yours too.

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But is there any counter argument against that one that could work in my case?
And if not, is it really be that easy to disprove the Abrahemic God?

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There is no counter that would convince a reasonable person. There are many counters that convince someone trying their hardest to believe in God (mostly dependant upon free will and us making our own decisions. I also heard this shit comparing evil to darkness, but it was just as dumb).

Yes, its very easy to disprove that God, but people are very good at finding ways to not really think about it or to rationalise these proofs away.

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But surely they wouldn't believe that free will would have any bearing in my particular example?
It's not I that claim these attributes that makes him illogical, it's them that do it.

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@18,907

I can't represent well their beliefs, you need to find a believer to ask.

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I believe it is true that God creates souls that will one day be condemned to hell, knowing fully that this is what will happen.

Now your question seems to be something like: since God knows what will happen to a soul before he creates it, why doesn't he stop himself from creating souls that will go to hell, and instead only create the souls that will go to heaven?

To answer this we must first explore why God creates any souls at all.

God creates humans to rule over all the land and creatures of the earth.
God creates humans to honor and glorify his name.

So if God wants humans to glorify him, then why doesn't He only create the humans that will follow him?

Lets pretend for a moment that He really did this. Now, there exists only those that love God and follow him. How hard do you think it is to follow God when everyone else is doing it? It seems like it would be fairly easy to believe something that everyone alive is destined to believe. What glory does that bring to God? If Satan saw that God was creating only the souls who would obey God, I am sure he would mock God and doubt his power. But, i suppose God could have not created Satan as well, but the point still stands whether anyone is there to see it that way or not. In this imaginary universe, when people got to heaven, would God say something like, "Well done my child, you believed in me, just like everyone else that was ever alive."? That is not something that would glorify God.

But that is not how it is, God really does create everyone, including those that will become evil. He does this so there is something to compare to, and something to struggle against.

Free will is also a part of it. Not creating the souls that would go to hell would be as if God were eliminating them before they ever got the chance to live and before they ever got the chance to decide whether they would rebel or if they would follow God.

Of course it is hard to talk about this or explain it because no one knows what a soul really is. It is probably something that God is willingly responsible for the existence of, but maybe he allows them to exist because erasing their existence before they sinned would be like murder?

Anyways, it is certainly a strange topic and I'm sure you could find deeper reasoning, but I am no professional.

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I believe it is true that God creates souls that will one day be condemned to hell, knowing fully that this is what will happen.

Now your question seems to be something like: since God knows what will happen to a soul before he creates it, why doesn't he stop himself from creating souls that will go to hell, and instead only create the souls that will go to heaven?

To answer this we must first explore why God creates any souls at all.

God creates humans to rule over all the land and creatures of the earth.
God creates humans to honor and glorify his name.

So if God wants humans to glorify him, then why doesn't He only create the humans that will follow him?

Lets pretend for a moment that He really did this. Now, there exists only those that love God and follow him. How hard do you think it is to follow God when everyone else is doing it? It seems like it would be fairly easy to believe something that everyone alive is destined to believe. What glory does that bring to God? If Satan saw that God was creating only the souls who would obey God, I am sure he would mock God and doubt his power. But, i suppose God could have not created Satan as well, but the point still stands whether anyone is there to see it that way or not. In this imaginary universe, when people got to heaven, would God say something like, "Well done my child, you believed in me, just like everyone else that was ever alive."? That is not something that would glorify God.

'''Glory? Why would such a thing matter to a omnipotent God that is supposed to the ultimate goodness? Surely glory shouldn't be one of the more important emotions?
And yeah, my reasoning about human souls apply to angels as well, including the fallen one, so he pretty much created tempting evil as well, but that's irrelevant'''

But that is not how it is, God really does create everyone, including those that will become evil. He does this so there is something to compare to, and something to struggle against.

Free will is also a part of it. Not creating the souls that would go to hell would be as if God were eliminating them before they ever got the chance to live and before they ever got the chance to decide whether they would rebel or if they would follow God.

But do these sinners and rebels really have a choice? If God before their creation has already seen whether or not they will become evil then there's really not much of a choice. Sure, one could argue that we believe that there's a free will and an ability to change but that's really beside the issue, the issue being that we cannot go against Gods plans.

Of course it is hard to talk about this or explain it because no one knows what a soul really is. It is probably something that God is willingly responsible for the existence of, but maybe he allows them to exist because erasing their existence before they sinned would be like murder?

But is not creating something the same thing as erasing an already existing thing? Cause then there's be plenty of casualties every time a sperm doesn't fertilize an egg.

Anyways, it is certainly a strange topic and I'm sure you could find deeper reasoning, but I am no professional.

Yes, it's quite a interesting topic. What's bothering me is that God could have done all of this, the creation, without creating billions of souls that will suffer hell just to serve as an exampel or help the rest realise of lucky they are. I mean he's supposed to be omnipotent.
And it's because of this that he can't be omnipotent, omniscient and all benevolent.
Ergo God cannot be God.

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@18,933

Glory? Why would such a thing matter to a omnipotent God that is supposed to the ultimate goodness? Surely glory shouldn't be one of the more important emotions?
- - -

Yes he does want glory, if we are talking about the God in the bible then, according to 1 Corinthians 10:31: So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.

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@18,938
True, but the bible says many things:

Exodus 33:19

And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

My point is that there are more important things to God then feeling glorious.

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@18,945

Yes, but whether or not it is His #1 priority is of little importance, and the fact that he has mercy and compassion doesn't take away from his glory at all.

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@18,924

> Lets pretend for a moment that He really did this. Now, there exists only those that love God and follow him. How hard do you think it is to follow God when everyone else is doing it? It seems like it would be fairly easy to believe something that everyone alive is destined to believe. What glory does that bring to God? If Satan saw that God was creating only the souls who would obey God, I am sure he would mock God and doubt his power. But, i suppose God could have not created Satan as well, but the point still stands whether anyone is there to see it that way or not. In this imaginary universe, when people got to heaven, would God say something like, "Well done my child, you believed in me, just like everyone else that was ever alive."? That is not something that would glorify God.

> But that is not how it is, God really does create everyone, including those that will become evil. He does this so there is something to compare to, and something to struggle against.

So God created billions of souls that he knew would go to hell and suffer eternally because of his fucked up concept of glory. Your argument is so misaligned with reality that I'm sure if you met such idiocy in any other area of your life you would be shocked, as I was in reading this. Nonetheless, it is consistent in itself and paints the picture of a remarkably cruel God; more cruel even than would be necessary to explain the OP's conundrum.

I was going to move straight on to your next paragraph but let me comment further, because I find the acrobatics you have performed here so ridiculous that I need to give you a moment to step back and laugh at what you wrote. Really, you conjured it up for no reason besides your need for an opinion and your subconscious unwillingness to undergo the burden of questioning your own beliefs. I'm sure that in all other areas of your life; the areas where you regularly hear people talk reasonably about the topic at hand, you're far about such benightedness.

> Free will is also a part of it. Not creating the souls that would go to hell would be as if God were eliminating them before they ever got the chance to live and before they ever got the chance to decide whether they would rebel or if they would follow God.

Indeed it would. This is not problematic and does not defy any individual's free will. Of course, you know that if God created any soul he would have actually determined its fate by creating it in whatever specific way he did. When he created you, he created someone that, by their own free will, was going to heaven and he knew it. When he created me, he created someone that, by my own free will, would definitely end up in hell. Why didn't he just create someone who, by their own free will, he knew would go to heaven? The answer is simple; because God is fictitious. Nonetheless, I'm sure that as above you're thinking of ways to rationalise this and protect your image of God rather than consider the possibility that my points are valid reasons to disbelieve in God. Its certainly true that arguing someone out of their unquestioned belief system is hard; people don't realise that they aren't actually applying logic to their part of the discourse for a long time.

> Of course it is hard to talk about this or explain it because no one knows what a soul really is. It is probably something that God is willingly responsible for the existence of, but maybe he allows them to exist because erasing their existence before they sinned would be like murder?

I was using souls very poetically to mean human beings. We have no evidence suggesting any other type of soul, nor anything that requires explaining at this time which could be accounted for with souls. To talk about what is probable in this circumstance is very daft.

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@18,986

> you're far about such benightedness.

you're far above such benightedness.

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Well, I'm not atheist and I'm not Christian/Jewish, so my opinion probably doesn't matter, but…

God is all benevolent in the fact that he has given you the ability to choose your own path, and he will not interfere with this world. I'm not sure if a 'soul' exists, or even if there is an afterlife, though.

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I notice that all replies so far, whether pro-god or anti-god, are dependant upon micro-management. Is it possible that a soul is created without predetermined qualities? Its also been assumed that any supposed god actually cares about the future rather than simply knowing whats about to happen and then shrugging his shoulders, as well as actually wanting you to go to heaven where you could bug him. Furthermore it is assumed that a god ruling over mankind is what man would call "sane, just, logical, not-wicked, etc." rather than just some dude he can see the future and defy the laws of nature. 097 made a decent arguement to support his god, and while it does use acrobatics, it can't be said to be defunct because of it for one simple reason: if you were a god, what would you gain from staying in touch with reality?

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I'm takeing the christans view on this one (partly cos I was braught up as one.) All souls were made perfect, kind of like children in their innosense, but we fucked up by eating the fruit from the tree of knowelage of good and evil. Now why would god let us do that? Because he wanted us to have free will, the ability to do whatever we wanted, and like the idiots we are we broke the only rule there was. Now there is a new rule… every human will sin (with the obious exception of jesus.)

The apparent reason that god has not fixed this error is assummed (remember this is what we were taught in sunday school) that we are "tested" by the devil through the sins of others. The aim of these "tests" is apparently to better ourselves and try to be like god would want us to be, like him.

Of course we still sin so we ask god (through jesus) so forgive us of these sins we have committed. if god can see into the future then its all good, because remember- To know thy future is to know thy doom.

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Find a concordance. The words (as in, more than one) that were translated to hell actually meant things quite different than how they are currently percieved.

Remember, "King James VERSION". Some things got changed.

If you're going to have a philosophical discussion, understand and know the origin of the scriptures. It would also help to read the books that have been excluded from the Bible.

I'm not saying something is wrong with the Bible - the essential message remains unchanged. It's the portions that have been twisted into the cornerstone of the Evangelical movement that have caused the problem, as well as people's perceptions of a book they've never seriously tried to read. Christian faith is actually much deeper than what has been shown on teevee.

For the record, I have not read the Bible, I've just learned more about the history of it. My point is simply to not debate on concepts that aren't completely in line with the original message. Make of it what you will.

Also, I don't believe in free will, only free choice.

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@19,053

Oh, I never said that souls are created with predetermined qualities, but it doesn't matter since I don't think you really understood what I've said in the first place.
If someone know logic argumentation and such and could clarify or simplify what I wrote I'd be glad but until then I 'll just have to give it another shoot:

The Christian God(or Islamic, Jewish or w/e) is said to posses omnipotence and omniscience in addition to all-benevolence and a will/desire to do good.
God himself has already defined what is Good and what is Evil through the ten commandments and later on through the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Now since God is omniscient he will only act in one possible way, since he will also see himself act in the past, present and the future of our time. That's just part of his nature, every decision he's taken or is gonna take is already taken at any given moment in our own world since he is also said to exist outside of our own time.

Let' take a look at the nature of souls now:

Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"

Ergo, according to Christianity God creates the human soul.

Most Christians also believe that when people die their souls will be judged by God, who sees all the wrong and right that they have done during their lives. If they have repented of their sins and accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, they will inherit eternal life in Heaven and enjoy eternal fellowship with God. Christians believe that if one has not repented of his sins and not accepted Jesus Christ, he will go to Hell, and suffer eternally as they are separated of God. This is the teaching of most evangelical, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches, which constitute the majority of Christianity, though there are some that believe the soul will be destroyed in hell, instead of suffering eternally, but that doesn't have any bearing on my arguments, au contraire really.

Now then comes the meat of my post:

A. God create all souls
B. God sees all souls that will suffer damnation before he even created them.
C. Therefore God is consciously creating souls that are determined to sin and consequently be punished in hell.

How can such a God be all-benevolent if he creates souls that have nothing but hell in their own future?

Either he's not all-benevolent, making it perfectly fine for him to create and punish millions of souls.
Or he's not omniscient, making it impossible for him see a souls future with 100% certainty.

I'm sure there's a couple of questions that you will ask so I'll just save you the trouble and answer them directly:

What about free will?
It's irrelevant since a God that is omniscient will see your future with 100% certainty, meaning that no matter what choices you make while you live you can't change the future that God has already seen.

God decides what is Good and Wrong, therefore it's perfectly fine for him to create souls that will only remind the rest of us that heaven is something we have to work for.

No, since God has already said what is Good and Wring through the Bible and Jesus. Bu this is rather meta and hypothetical, much like my arguments lol.

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I might have written to much there :)

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Marco_Allegro

I agree with this guy and his books.

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So do I.

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